On my last visit back to Iraqi Kurdistan, I made a special trip to the new courthouse in Sulaymania. I have been visiting the Sulaymania courthouse ever since my graduation from law school in 2003 in order to meet with colleagues and observe court proceedings. The visit was always trying. Until recently, the courthouse was in the middle of the most crowded place in the city. It was dirty and small, unbearably hot in the summer and uncomfortably cold in the winter. My visits reminded me of my summer clerkships in that courthouse during law school and the long hot days trying to pay attention to the proceedings in the difficult conditions. Still, I looked forward to these visits each time to keep up with the administration of justice in my home country.
A little more than a year ago, I first passed by the planned new courthouse (it was not finished yet), and immediately realized it was going to be quite different from the existing courthouse. It was outside the city, much larger and at least from the exterior it seemed quite impressive. So when I went back to Iraq this March, I was very excited to hear that the new courthouse was functioning, with all personnel and casework having been transferred to it from the old courthouse. I then contacted one of my friends and asked her if I could watch her in her active cases and also observe other pending matters taking place there. She was delighted to help.
As the taxi stopped in front of the courthouse, I saw two check points before walking in to the building. One was for men, and the other for women. As I was waiting for my turn I observed the male line where my husband was standing. There was another person ahead of him smoking. The first thing the guard told him was that he is not allowed to smoke in the building and must throw away his cigarette. As per usual practice in Iraq, the man just threw his cigarette on the ground. The guard reacted angrily asking him to pick it up and put it in the garbage can out of respect for the environment and the courthouse.
This made me reconsider my previous articles on anti-smoking laws and the protection of environment in Iraq, where I criticized the laws for being entirely unenforced. These laws are not properly enforced by the government in all respects, but clearly there have been important steps that have been taken. I have never before seen anyone seek to enforce a littering law anywhere in Iraq. The efforts showed; the courthouse was visibly cleaner than most establishments in Iraq.
Walking to the new building was a new experience for me in Iraq. Not only was it clean, but it was organized and resembled a courthouse almost anywhere. The judges hold hearings in courtrooms that are designed purely for court proceedings. (In the old courthouse, the judge’s chambers were the courtroom). There is ample, comfortable seating for the public in the back, and in the front a wide, large judge’s bench, a court reporter’s desk with a computer in front of it, and separate tables for the plaintiff and the defendant. Behind the judge’s bench were two large flags, one on each side of the judge. The flag on the judge’s left was the Iraqi flag, and on the right was the flag of the Kurdish region.
One thing that still needs work is efforts at computerization. Despite the fact that the court reporter has a computer on their desk, it goes unused. The reporters still write out everything in longhand, and file all papers in file cabinets rather than electronically. Thus, there is no actual court transcript of the proceedings. Instead, the judge summarizes testimony before the witness and lawyers, and the court reporter transcribes the summary. It is also very hard to search for cases and decisions, because they are only filed in hard copy chronologically, which is not how anyone usually searches for useful precedent.
The first case I witnessed involved an effort by a husband to obtain a judicially ordered dissolution of his marriage from his wife. Though husbands are permitted to divorce their wives in Iraq and under Islamic law unilaterally through a process known as talaq, there are financial ramifications for doing so. The part of the proceedings I witnessed involved testimony from the husband’s father, who indicated that his wife had told him that the son's wife was particularly harsh with her, shouting at her frequently and dismissive of her concerns. The questioning was conducted entirely by the judge, who as is the case generally in civilian jurisdictions involved himself extensively in the proceedings. After he was finished, he informed each counsel that they could ask any clarifying questions if they wished, but nothing further than this. He also allowed the wife’s attorney to place on record the fact that the testimony was hearsay and therefore should be given lighter weight by the court. (Iraq does not have a prohibition against the use of hearsay testimony, but it is under the Law of Evidence supposed to be discounted).
The second case was a felony case that involved a very serious car accident, with the charge being something akin to reckless homicide. We did not have an opportunity to see a great deal of this case. The case was in its early stages, and as is typical in Iraq, relatives of the victim were sworn in to testify as to whether they were seeking compensation. (Under Iraqi law, criminal cases are often combined with tort cases, and thus claimants are given an opportunity to demand compensation during the criminal trial. If they decline, they are always free to initiate a civil claim later, though the findings of the criminal court will be binding on the subsequent court). The relatives were asked to swear on the Qur’an, and when the judge announced this, the entire room stood, as is custom in Iraq, when the Qur’an was presented for them to swear on. They then stated they would not seek compensation, and by the time this process was completed, we were forced to leave.
Other proceedings we had even less of an opportunity to witness. We did sit in on a complex commercial litigation, and just as we were beginning to understand the contours of the case, which involved the valuation of a business, the judge suspended the proceedings to appoint an expert to assist. We also saw a misdemeanors proceeding where a judge berated a defendant who insisted that he was not selling weapons but only had them for his own protection. The judge angrily gestured at the evidence, which was a fair amount of weaponry, and asked why anyone would need several automatic weapons to defend themselves. Unfortunately, the day and the court sessions ended, just after noon, before any final determination was made in the misdemeanors case.
Overall, I was encouraged. I am more optimistic that rule of law will have a better place in Iraq over time, and that Iraq will get over the obstacles that it faces every day if it continues on this course.
Sara Burhan Abdullah
Just wanted to let everyone know about my latest post on Jurist, which isn't so much about the Iraqi Federal Supreme Court avoiding shari'a, as what it does when it's faced with Islamic legislation, meaning an area of law that is either codification of shari'a or at least draws significant influence from Islamic rules. If you think what they do is actually interpret shari'a, or subject the legislation to review to ensure compliance with shari'a, rest assured they don't. Article 2 of the Iraq constitution remains as ornamental as it has always been. For details, read the article.
HAH
Loyal readers of the blog know my longstanding contention (see link for a shorter scholarly article on the subject) that the Iraqi Federal Supreme Court will turn over heaven and earth to avoid the undertaking the interpretation of shari'a. The reason is that the court's position is from a legal standpoint somewhat precarious--technically it is a "caretaker" court, composed on the basis of a law that was enacted prior to the current Constitution, and the current Constitution clearly envisions the enactment of a new law in Article 92 pursuant to which a new court will come into being. Hence when it makes a decision that one faction does not like, as when it decided that Maliki could form the 2010 government post election rather than Allawi, this is pointed out to it, thereby translating that legal precariousness into one with political implications.
For the most part, the Court has managed to do a fairly good job burnishing its credentials despite these vulnerabilities--the above referenced complaint by Allawi ally Tariq Al Hashimi was easily brushed away given that Hashimi himself had come to the court not long before to demand his presidential council salary on the basis of his participation in an institution that preceded the constitution (and pursuant to a law that set the salary that likewise preceded the constitution). Other institutions that are far more controversial, for example the Accountability and Justice Commission (fancy ne official name for the de-Baathification Commission) have a harder time justifying their caretaker status. Still, the Court is aware of this.
In addition, there is Najaf. A famous commentator on the Egyptian Supreme Constitutional Court once told me that the Court when it interprets Islamic law always gets a view from the Azhar in Cairo, that pinnacle of Sunni learning, and always throws it away. Well if that's what they do in Egypt, it's certainly not what they do in Iraq. The Court doesn't need Grand Ayatollah Sistani as an enemy, it knows that, and it's not likely to provoke him by interpreting shari'a differently than he does. (One exception provided in the linked article).
But this post isn't about that, I say three paragraphs in burying my lead. It is instead a response to those, including not a few lawyers, who object and tell me the Court simply cannot avoid Article 2 questions on Islamicity and law because its jurisdiction is mandatory, unlike that of the U.S. Supreme Court, whose jurisdiction is basically discretionary. The Supreme Court decides to hear a case through a process known as issuing a writ of certiorari--the Iraq Federal Supreme Court is obligated to hear particular matters. There you go, they say, the procedure proves you wrong, they say.
And I say, oh, how cute, formalists! (Too smarmy? Maybe, sorry.) Anyway, the fact that a court doesn't have discretion to turn down a case doesn't mean it will decide it, it just makes it a little bit harder to avoid. But it still can be done, it is done with some regularity, in fact, everywhere. To illustrate, let us take a closer look at the Iraq Supreme Court in operation:
Decision 54 of 2010
Parents of a soldier killed in war want his apartment. It was given to his widow I think and the decree giving it to her (issued by the Ba'ath era Revolutionary Command Council, or RCC) stipulated it could not be inherited, it would go back to the state when she died. Allegation is this violates shari'a inheritance rules.
Decision: The parents took a sum certain pursuant to the same RCC decree. You can't take with one hand and then insist the decree violates Islam on the other. It's what those of us familiar with the common law and the equity courts would refer to as "unclean hands". Shari'a avoided.
Decision 39 of 2011
Husband divorces his wife unilaterally through the Islamic procedure available to husbands known as talaq. But he does so arbitrarily a lower court finds, and therefore holds him liable for alimony for two years after his divorce. He claims the relevant provision permitting this alimony violates shari'a because the jurists never suggested such a result, or any financial consequences for issuing a divorce like this for a good or bad reason.
Decision: The wife isn't the person who can defend the constitutional claim, it's not her claim, it's the state's claim to defend. Dismissed. Shari'a avoided.
[This actually isn't as crazy as it seems to Americans. In the U.S., it would be insane because the Supreme Court is the highest appeals court, so if you are challenging a statute, say a defamation statute as in New York Times v. Sullivan or Flynt v. Falwell, effectively you have to do it as a defense to the defamation claim against you, and take it up. The other side is a private party, that's who raises these claims. Naturally there's probably an amicus brief filed by the sovereign with the law, but they aren't really part of the case. But when you have a constitutional tribunal, the way it is supposed to work is the question usually gets certified by a lower court or maybe raised by a litigant, and it isn't unusual for the constitutional tribunal, which really only deals with that one issue, to hear it separately and involve the state. The French Constitutional Council for example did get the PM's view on its own defamation statute before ruling in 2011 that its existing defamation law was unconstitutional because it did not permit truth to be a defense more than ten years after whatever is being reported occurred.
Still, you'd think the court could have sought the state's view, rather than merely see it wasn't present and then dismiss the case because of that. Still, as I said, not crazy, in fact depending on unpublished procedural details respecting how it got there quite plausible.]
Decision 99 of 2011
The Basra Appeals Court certifies the following question to the Iraq Federal Supreme Court. Does the Liquor License Law, No. 3 of 1931, violate the settled rulings of Islam as per Article 2 of the Iraq Constitution?
Decision: There's no pending reported case about this, so the Basra Court acted out of order and beyond protocol by asking this question. Dismissed, with costs to that court.
[Ouch. I honestly don't know what happened here. If I was in Basra right now, I'd find out. But since I'm not, I'll speculate. Iraqi judges have their foibles like all of us, but they are professional, serious, hardworking people I cannot believe three appeals judges sat around Basra drinking tea and eating baklava and thought to themselves, "Hey here's a question! Let's go ask the Federal Supreme Court about it, just for kicks." If they did, they deserved the Court's smackdown.
More likely, they just didn't include reference to the underlying case because they didn't think it important, or they were pressured by some Sadrist notable down there to issue the question despite there being no pending case, or they did mention it somewhere but it helpfully got "lost" on the way to Baghdad and hence the Federal Supreme Court ignored it. Something in the nitty gritty happened here, something not relayed in the facts, that made it helpfully easy to get rid of.]
Avoided, avoided, avoided. In each case, on plausible grounds. In each case, an alternative result was not impossible to reach. And that's how you do it when you don't have the power of cert.
HAH
Maliki has said some rather surprising things recently that ought to raise eyebrows, but they require sufficient context that it is perhaps unsurprising they did not. As a blogging law professor who doesn't need to worry about word limits and burying leads, I will lay out that context in a few paragraphs because the lead doesn't work without them, and then I will explain why it is that I think Maliki's recent comments are worth paying attention to in light of that.
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To the extent that Americans think of this time of year as it concerns Iraq, they probably think of it as the anniversary of the fall of Saddam Hussein's statue in Firdous Square, nine years ago yesterday. But Iraqi Shi'a don't think of that first. They might well think of it, the fall of Saddam will reverberate among the Shi'a long after it fades from the American memory, but to the Shi'a, early April commemorates Saddam's murder of Muhammad Baqir al Sadr on April 5, 1980. I've written on Sadr fairly extensively in scholarly articles and in a memorable exchange with the incomparable Chibli Mallat, whose work The Renewal of Islamic Law remains to this day the authoritative work on Sadr. Suffice it to say, Sadr was to me one of the few jurists who really, truly sought to render shari'a relevant to modernity in a fashion that was self-consciously ideologically driven, with the ideology including a concern for the downtrodden that seems to have evaded all too many reform movements in the region. The ideas are too radical to have been practical (he couldnt have been expected to know that), and his trust in the juristic institutions almost naive (I expect he would have realized this had he lived to see the Islamic Revolution truly unfold), but overall I've found his work quite refreshing relative to so much of the nonsense one sees spouted by most Islamist movements today with conceptions of the shari'a that are not just primitive, but positively incoherent,
In any event, Sadr's murder effectively began Saddam's reign of tyranny and extreme repression over Najaf (hence he is colloquially dubbed the First Martyr), and Sadr has since been lionized among the Shi'a for his bold ideas. Except, of course, the radicalism of his thoughts never quite took hold, Islamist movements grew largely coopted into Western economic theory with the end of the Cold War, and the turn toward pragmatism, which was probably inevitable, and even sensible, was never accompanied by the same sort of introspective self conscious theoretical set of underpinnings that defined Sadr's work. I get how Sadr justifies his approach to shari'a, but I don't even know what shari'a is when the Brotherhood speaks.
Of course if you coopt the message, you have to coopt the messenger as well, and hence Sadr has been reinvented virtually every anniversary of his death by Iraq's Islamist Shi'i elite. This year is no exception. The reinventions are quite interesting to those few of us who have actually looked at Sadr's work in a great deal of detail, but probably not for everyone else. For everyone else, what is interesting is what the reinvention betrays about the person engaging in the practice, and it is here where Maliki's recent remarks in Kerbala commemmorating Sadr's death prove quite fascinating. (Shout out to my buddy Muayyad who pointed this in my direction and recognized its signicance).
The first and most reflection Maliki offers is that a "foreign power ordered Saddam to execute Sadr the martyr when an airplane from a foreign side landed in Baghdad airport and ordered Saddam to kill Sadr."
This is important, someone, Maliki is suggesting, is out to get the Shi'a. (It's not important because it's true to be clear, I'm more or less assuming he made it up.) In fact, this someone is so out to get the Shi'a, that Maliki is willing effectively to shift some blame away from his favorite bogeymen, the Ba'ath, onto them for the greatest assassination conducted against the Shi'a in a century. Who does he mean? Does he obliquely refer to The United States of America? That seems to be the likely culprit right? Landing secret planes in Baghdad airport and ordering the murder of the beloved Shi'i jurist? Is Maliki turning away from the U.S., getting ready to paint them in a bad light if they follow through on attacks against Iran. Consider this gem in the same remarks:
Among the reasons that hastened his execution was his support for the Islamic Republic in Iran.
That's actually true, interesting that Maliki pointed it out, at the same time he indicates that Sadr was actually killed by a foreign power. So the foreign power, seeing Sadr supporting Iran, sent a plane to Baghdad airport and ordered him killed. And who had hostages in Iran back then?
OK you might say, but he could surely be referring to Kuwait perhaps, or Saudi, couldn't he? Avowed enemies of Iran, a demonstration of the evil Sunni neighbors prying into Iraqi affairs to suppress the Shi'a. Couldn't this be a disguised play at sectarianism? Probably not, given this, from the remarks:
The ideas of Sadr do not resort to terms of sectarianism. He used to call the Shi'a and the Sunnis the children of Ali and Umar.
Partly true. Certainly true in the writing of his remarkably ecumenical Iqtisaduna. But later in life clearly he turned more to Shi'i models and Shi'i ideas. Still, the point here is Sadr as national figure for all. Maliki goes on.
We see in the ideas of Sadr the means to build a state. There are answers to many of the questions posed respecting state building.
So he doesn't seem to be trying to stoke sectarianism, it's not his style anyway. He's all about the state of law and the like. When he wants to crush an opposition he calls them extralegal bandits and terrorists, not heretics. Here's more turning against the West suggested:
Whoever looks at the world today, and sees socialism having gone extinct, and observes capitalism on the way to extinction, he will see that Sadr's vision, of combined economics, is the correct view.
Actually, Sadr went out of his way to argue that while Islamic economics had elements in common with socialism and capitalism, it was not a combination of the two of them, but rather its own, independent way. He'd probably turn in his grave at the combination reference. But again, that's more interesting to the Sadr nerds than anyone else. More relevant to everyone else, what's this about capitalism on its way out? He's sounding like Ahmedinijad. And finally, consider the following, at the start of the remarks:
The ideas of Sadr contributed to the confrontation of the challenges that the 'umma (the Muslim community) faced in the last century, and that were represented by Marxism, and secularism. We were able to defeat these challenges with the grace of books by Sadr, including Our Economics . . . .
It's one speech, political leaders say things and retract them all the time. And the PM may well have figured nobody was going to pick up on it in the West, where few know who Muhammad Baqir al Sadr even is. But still, the equating of Marxism with liberal democracy, of capitalism with socialism, of building a national project that resists hegemons, and above all else, of hanging the murder of Iraqi Shi'ism's most beloved figure on a mysterious all powerful foreign entity that landed a plane in Baghdad airport and sped his execution up because of his support for the Islamic Republic of Iran, at a time when Iran had US hostages?
There's something happening here. What it is aint exactly clear. There's a plane with an order over there, telling Saddam he's got to beware. . ..
HAH
I just read about this interesting new practice in housing developments in Malaysia that is based in Islamic finance, and the historic credit sale permissibility tied thereto. For those unaware, Islamic law has always permitted credit sales (I sell you X now, and you agree to pay me over time), which makes for an easy interest evasion. At times, the contortions to achieve this are amusing, particularly for a practice that spends so much time defending a ban on interest as furtherance of a principle of profit and loss sharing.
Take this Malaysian example. You have housing developers in Malaysia, and they're seeking to sell the property in advance, as yet undeveloped. So normally what one does to evade interest in Islamic finance (or one way to do it, in any event) with completed property is for the bank to buy the property, immediately sell it to the purchaser at credit sale at a markup, or to use a form of rent to own, where the purchaser pays a lease price (corresponding to the interest payment), along with the purchase of an ownership stake that grows over time (corresponding to the principal payment). Yet the problem with this approach in this context is that legal regulators don't much like the idea of banks having some sort of interest in undeveloped property, which is risky, and so the relevant regulatory rules require the purchase and sale, from developer to final purchaser, to be on the books first, and then one can go get a loan for the money from the Islamic bank.
But of course interest bearing loans aren't allowed, so what to do? Follow closely now. Developer sells it to the person who is ultimately going to purchase it,for a given price, which the purchaser has yet to pay. The purchaser, instead of getting a loan, sells the interest immediately to the Islamic bank, which meets necessary regulatory requirements it seems if the bank then immediately sells it back to him at a higher price (bay al ina it's called, sale and repurchase of the same item at markup, controversial in many areas of the Muslims world) which is then paid over time, with the Bank retaining a security interest throughout. So the sale was already on the books, and then the "loan" through sale and repurchase. Several problems.
Did the purchaser, when selling the property in the first place, even own the damn thing? It isn't in existence (property hasn't been developed yet), which is one problem under speculation prohibitions, but aside from that, the purchaser hasn't paid for it beyond an initial deposit and as such the seller isn't putting the buyer's name on the title until the seller gets its cash which only happens after the purchaser sells the property to the bank for cash, to give to the developer. So the purchaser is selling something to the bank and then buying it back, in circumstances where it's not even clear the purchaser owns it. Certainly it has no legal title, no seller in their right mind would ever concede that.
Then there's the even weirder part that the bank doesn't even agree to this purchase and sale bit, given that it's buying it from a purchaser who sort of doesn't own it and certainly hasn't paid for it, unless it can take a security interest in the property as against the seller upon purchase. That way, if anything happens, it can always foreclose. But it buys and then sells the damn property to the samy guy. You cannot take out security on something you just bought, it makes no sense. If you don't pay, do you foreclose on yourself?
So a purchaser who might not own something sells it to a bank who claims it does and then takes a security interest in it, to sell it back to the person who still might not own it but has money for it now to pay a developer who then gives him ownership of property he's bought and sold, which, again, has had a lien taken out by someone who owned it when they took out the lien.
Friends, seriously. Stop. Just stop. Take out an interest bearing loan and be done with it. Honestly.
HAH
Noah Feldman and I had a most pleasant dinner and conversation at West Point's historic Mess Hall last week. (We spoke at the same conference. He opened the conference with the evening lecture, I gave the keynote luncheon address the next day. Click the link, and the conference program and speakers is on that page somewhere to review).
As he was speaking, I thought the distinctions between our two positions became somewhat clearer to me as mine has evolved over the course of a few years. He's done a very good job convincing me that shari'a in our times has transformed itself to some extent away from any attempt to implement specific (if selective) shari'a rules that have some historical pedigree (whether that's the application of the strict traditional hudud punishments, historic family law rules or obsessions over women's dress) and more in favor of what I think of as good governance (anti-corruption, open elections, no abuses of authority, etc.). I think we'd both agree neither the Taliban nor Boko Haram in Nigeria fit this model particularly well, but it is something of note that people like me aren't in a panic and actually do not think much bad will arise if the Muslim Brotherhood assumes control in Egypt, or that much bad came about from Iraq's Islamist party rise because of how fundamentally they have moderated the Islamist message. Except for the rather cacophonous Sadrists, whose more extreme elements scare the hell out of me, I see little problem with the balance of the parties in Iraq's mix. Whatever Iraq's problems are, Islamism as threat is not one of them and in fact given my spiritual affinity to them relative to Iraq's secularists, I sort of like these folks even if I don't agree with them much politically. At least they don't offend me. Where before it was uncontroversial among Islamic parties that the state had to enforce the veil, now the trend is very much in the opposite direction. Iraq, Tunisia, Egypt, the Islamists win, the veil remains legally voluntary. There's all sorts of civic pressure (more on that another time), but not state enforcement.
Noah and I no doubt disagree about precisely when this change took place. (Based on his remarks, he seems to think FIS would have been in Algeria in 1991 something like what Ennahda is now in Tunisia, I think you were looking straight into the teeth of a second Iran). And I think he'd phrase it "rule of law" and limits on executive authority and I really think it's more broadly matters relating to good governance. But these might well be quibbles, the kinds of things law professors write back and forth in law reviews to each other all the time, but in the end are not of great importance.
No, the real difference is that Noah works hard. very hard, to grant some historical pedigree to the Islamist claim, and I do not. He seems to find this good governance/rule of law stuff in Islamic history, and I think that's like finding shapes of Greek gods in the clouds (look hard enough, you'll find 'em. Unless you want to find flying squirrels up there, in which case you'll find them). His approach is to earnestly search for that which explains the Islamist change as having pedigree, mine is to dismiss all of that as hindsight driven justificatory exercise and focus on the actual political and social reasons it came about.
Both approaches have their insights and to be fair, he's concrete and sensible about it cynical as I might be. Unlike others in our academy (I'll leave my powder dry and not name them now), who believe in shari'a as the best basis for organization of the Muslim state, and who describe it on the basis of the "goals" of the shari'a (protection of life, mind, honor, football, family, religion, headscarves, property, beards, something else), Feldman isn't peddling voodoo, this random highly abstract and effectively meaningless nonsense that couldn't get you to a concrete legal decision on anything. He is talking about rule of law in a much more definite fashion in history and in modernity (which of course makes it easier to challenge as a matter of history, but that's a task for others).
I just don't think that what happened was Islamists looked back at Islamic history and thought they had rule of law and so what we really should be doing is engaging in rule of law. Or they didn't have corruption so what our program should be is reducing corruption.
What happened, I think, is that shari'a, as a means of legal organization, failed. It failed to provide sensible rules of commercial organization through "Islamic economics" that could function in modernity, and so it compromised itself. It failed to provide peasants with better lives by making sure that urban educated women couldn't walk around in short skirts, and so it toned that down. It failed to create societies that proved more morally pure through stoning and amputation, and it dialled those back too. Failure and retreat is the story, over two decades until the parties got the message--drop shari'a, or die. And so they dropped shari'a.
They of course couldn't say that. They could I suppose have said that they believed in a secular state with a religious people in it--that shari'a is a means by which an individual believer might live a good life, has rules that can constrain individual behavor in a manner that when done on an individual, voluntary level leads to social betterment (nothing calms me more than the noontime prayer, like looking at the Milky Way, it helps to remind me that whatever is stressing me at that particular moment in fact is not important at all). But even that is difficult for organizations that spent their careers defending a more public, social, legal, political role for Islam.
So they changed what they expected sharia to do into something (rule of law, good governance, call it what you will) that you really don't need shari'a to explain, defend or justify at all. And I just don't think it's got legs in the long run, though in the short run the history of these groups will help of course. But over time, I think once you've taken this step, then eventually you'll be down in the muck with the rest of us. If the Islamists can deliver, on good governance, on economic betterment on the rule of law, then sure whatever it's our history, caliphs, jurists, all the rest of it. If they cannot,well the other dude that says rule of law, that doesn't tie it to Islam, that actually can deliver, maybe he'll not look so bad. After all, it's hard to describe the secularist as "unIslamic". He's got the same program the Brotherhood does. He's just missing the rhetoric.
HAH